I relate really deeply to jake running away and trying to avoid the problem with his relationship because i have too been too afraid and unsure of what to do and received nothing but negativity or lack of support from people who were supposed to care about me and the idea that i should apologize for avoiding making a decision with somebody who put pressure on me and scared me and pushed me into uncomfortable situations makes me feel like shit and also isnt valid. Jake felt he had no choice but to ignore dirk completely and jake is someone who talks out all of his feelings with all of his friends its something he has never been afraid to do in canon but he was afraid to do it with dirk at that moment. That says something.
It upsets me when people say jake is the asshole for making extremely inconsequential comments like “he talks too much” when he should have been saying “he expects too much out of me and pushes me when im not ready and wont let me make my own decisions” because that was jake trying to see the best in dirk even when he was frustrated and upset and confused like he turned a really malfunctioning situation into “he talks too much and is kind of clingy”
Im not saying jake never did anything wrong but implying he needs to apologize just as much as dirk does is really upsetting and cruel. Considering in canon its implied jake would rather apologize and blame himself before even trying to say dirk fucked anything up.
There is a different power dynamic here and it just upsets me when its ever implied jake needs to own up like ok jake needs to evaluate that he should stand up for himself but the thing is he stood up for what he believes in plenty of times before the break up. He stood up for his friends to caliborn and he stood up for dirk when jane or roxy talked about how cool lil hal was and he stood up for his bravado plenty of times. Suddenly thinking of himself as someone who doesnt deserve anybody and should be alone forever is the behaviour of somebody who has been treated very wrongly.
It goes into further territory when you consider jake is as far as i know the only character to be sexually harassed to the extent he has been. Jane literally said he was only valuable for sex and then the whole aranea situation. Jake has been under the eyes of very aggressive and managing people and maybe he runs away when hes scared and cries and maybe thats not completely RIGHT but how can you say he needs to apologize for that
yea im not putting this under read more fuck it everyone should just read this
I’m actually going to step up here because, in their relationship BOTH Dirk and Jake fucked up. And actually they do BOTH need to apologise for that shit, and not just to each other I feel.
Because you know what, is it okay to be scared? Yeah. Is it okay to run away some times? Yeah that’s okay too, everyone needs time to themselves to calm down and think properly.
But you’ve got to remember Dirk lived completely alone with no one his whole life. Suddenly being around people was a huge change for him, being in a relationship of any kind not held through online conversations was a huge change for him. Of course he was going to fuck up, especially given how much he hates himself already, and how manipulative he is even when he isn’t trying to be.
To ignore someone who has basically been physically alone their whole life is a pretty shitty thing to do in my books. Jake was alone too but at least he had his grandma for some time. He had a taste of face to face, physical interaction. Dirk didn’t have that, he was the only one who didn’t have some kind of interaction with an organic life form. (Jane had a dad, Jake had his grandma until condy killed her, and Roxy had the exiles…carapaces(sp?)
It’s fine that he was scared, and needed space. But in any relationship ignoring someone and ignoring the problem is a shitty thing to do. I know, I’ve been there, ON BOTH SIDES of that equation. It is a human thing to do, it’s a mistake most people make at least once (usually a lot). But it is a mistake you should own up to when you make it.
To say he doesn’t need to apologise for that? No that’s wrong, that’s bullshit. Dirk has a lot to answer for, I’m not denying that. It’s clear he pressured Jake, and didn’t give him space. He was controlling, and that’s probably because he doesn’t know any other way to be. He’s recognised himself, that he fucked up momentously and now he needs to apologise for that. But so does Jake, he should have at least said to Dirk “I need some space,” I know it’s not as easy as that, but it would have been a better thing to do.
You can’t absolve either Dirk or Jake of their responsibilities in this situation. They both fucked up, they both bare the responsibility of how things went. Maybe Dirk bares more than Jake, but that still doesn’t make what Jake did right.
As for Aranea, completely agree fuck her, that’s all on her. As for Jane, this is crocker Jane, while what she said and did was wrong, she isn’t completely in control of her own facilities. I imagine she’s going to feel very shitty about a LOT of things when/if she goes back to normal.
Also I get the feeling Dirk and Jake probably would have made amends by now, maybe they wouldn’t have gotten back together (even I can see that wouldn’t have been a very healthy thing to do without a lot of talking.) But everyone kind of has bigger problems to worry about, in the story right now.
why do you think jake is responsible for dirk’s feelings and dirk’s failures and dirk’s bullshit
why is your reaction to “dirk is controlling and manipulative and he pressures jake a lot and jake felt like he had to get away from dirk” to say “but before he took care of himself he should have made sure dirk didn’t feel bad”
I think you misunderstood my post.
Jake isn’t responsible Dirk’s failures or his bullshit, I never said he was. I said that Dirk had a lot of failures and a lot he needed to own up to. But Jake is responsible for how he affected Dirk’s feelings the same way Dirk is responsible for how he affected Jake’s.
They are BOTH at fault in this relationship. Neither one of them is innocent or faultless. That was my point.
I didn’t say he should have taken care of Dirk’s feelings first. What he should have done was said “I need some space from you,” rather than just ignoring him. This doesn’t require him to make sure Dirk doesn’t feel like shit, this just requires him to make sure Dirk at least knows what’s going on, on some level. (Which is what you should do in a relationship, the answer to being hurt is not to outright punish your partner, especially when they might not understand what’s going on. )
Dirk was clingy and controlling, and he shouldn’t have been. He should have respected Jake’s independence and space and he didn’t. What I explained was reasons why Dirk behaved the way he did, he doesn’t really know how to treat people. I never said this was Jake’s fault or responsibility.
No one should hate on Jake for what he did, it was after all a realistic portrayal of how things in relationships can and do go wrong, and a very believable and relateable reaction. However no one should shift the blame so it is all on Dirk either.
At no point did I shift the blame that should be placed on Dirk to Jake. I merely explained that they are both at fault in this situation. I even admitted that Dirk is probably more so.
There is a difference between making sure someone doesn’t feel bad, and making sure they are aware you need some time to yourself. And they both kind of need to apologise for being shitty friends to Roxy and Jane.
Hope that clears things up for you
Okay, my turn to take a crack at this.
You may not have said it in direct words, but that is what you’re saying implies.
Tell me, who started it? Was Jake the one who first cause Dirk to be clingy and manipulative by avoiding him or was Dirk the one who caused Jake to avoid him because he was too controlling? I believe we’re both in agreement that the latter is the case. Jake is only doing what he’s doing as a reaction to Dirk’s own behavior.
Second, let’s consider how Dirk treats Jake, even BEFORE they got together. From past pesterlogs and general understanding of Dirk’s personality, we both know that Dirk tends to push others into doing things…even if they don’t want to do them (for their own good, of course). We also know that Jake is well aware of how easily Dirk can manipulate him into situations he does not want to be in.
So we have Jake, a social stunted boy, who is placed in a situation where he needs to deal his best friend slash boyfriend about his suffocating ways. Said boyfriend has a looooong history of easily manipulating him and talking him out of every single decision he disagreed with.
You can say “You should have just talked to him”, but can you look me in the (internet/text) eyes and tell me that there is a 100% chance that Dirk would not have tried to talk Jake out of it? That Dirk would have totally respected Jake’s decision? Do you think that this might have been a factor into why Jake decided to just avoid Dirk instead of confronting him?
Like, it would be great if relationship problems were as simple to work out, but it’s not.
((Also, Jake already apologized to Jane after she blew up at him. Though, personally, I think Jane owes him an apology because she pulled a huge Nice Girl move. The i-like-you-but-i-never-told-you-and-now-im-blowing-up-at-you-cause-you-keep-talking-to-me-about-relationship-problems-because-you-consider-me-a-good-friend-and-i-cant-be-ass-to-give-you-a-straight-no.))
I’m not blindly defending Dirk, nor absolving him of what he did, I’m just providing the counter argument to the original post.
It’s obvious Dirk started it, where did I ever state other wise? But to say that Jake isn’t at fault at all is bullshit.
Yes Dirk has a history of manipulating people even when he doesn’t mean to, he’s admitted as much himself, I mean shit even I said that in my last post! Yes there is a chance that Dirk would have tried to talk Jake out of it, that doesn’t mean Jake shouldn’t have tried in the first place. I never said that Jake’s behaviour wasn’t a reaction to Dirk’s, I was stating it was the wrong behaviour.
All he should have done was say “I need my space” AND THEN proceed to ignore Dirk not matter what, until he’d had time to calm down and figure himself out. As you said relationships aren’t simple, I’ve fucked up enough of my own to know that first hand. But as I said outright ignoring someone who doesn’t understand the problem, isn’t right either. It easy for all of us to point fingers because we’re on the outside looking in (on a fictional but well written, believable relationship breakdown. The fact we’re all arguing about it proves how well done it was.)
Whether or not Dirk would have respected Jake’s decision is another argument entirely, it doesn’t absolve Jake of completely ignoring him. Somehow I think we are all forgetting that Dirk realised what a shit head he was in his self-hate filled conversation on the roof with Lil Hal. He’s aware that he fucked up, and he knows what a dick he’s been. If shit hadn’t spiralled so magnificently out of control so fast, there probably would have been some attempt at a reconciliation by now.
Neither Dirk nor Jake are innocent in this, that’s my entire point. Stop coming at me like I’m making Dirk out to be an innocent little angel, who can do no wrong, because I’m not. Stop treating Jake like he’s never fucked up or contributed in some part to the problems around him. Its one thing to explain his behaviour, it’s another to use that to excuse it.
These characters are all teens, they have ALL made bad decisions. Some have made more than others, some of them are bigger assholes than others. (i.e Jane and Dirk kind of come out top of pile on that one.)
Just because Dirk is the bigger fuck up out of him and Jake, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t criticise Jake at all.
As for Jane. I said both Dirk and Jake need to apologise to Jane and Roxy. Pretty sure they both owe apologies here to either one or both girls, I didn’t get into specifics because it wasn’t entirely relevant. I also stated in my first post that Jane will probably feel very shitty about a lot of things once she is no longer Crocker Jane. I never said she didn’t owe anyone any apologies. Because I think the only one here who probably doesn’t owe anyone else an apology here (or at least owes the least) is Roxy.
So in short. Neither of the boys are innocent, they both fucked up. That was my entire point. If people don’t like others hating on Jake for what he did, then I’m allowed to not like people shifting all of the blame onto Dirk either. Because I think they both fucked up and acted like assholes, to some degree.
Jake isn’t 100% innocent, Dirk isn’t 100% innocent. They both fucked up. Dirk fucked up more. They both have problems and gaping personality flaws. End of discussion.
(Watch me attempt and fail not to respond to any more of these. It’s 11:53 am and I am already tired. Christ. Not that I don’t like a good debate. It just feels like people are ignoring certain parts of my argument, so they can defend Jake’s behaviour 100%. Being justified doesn’t make him innocent.)
I know you got that. That’s why I said “we’re both in agreement”.
No, I never accused you of making Dirk into a saint, but I do think that you underestimate the severity of disproportionate balance in power between Dirk and Jake. Nor do I think Jake is without flaws that have contributed to his share of problems. However, his flaws are not causing this problems so much as preventing him from finding a better solution (a solution Dirk should have been working on because he sounded pretty damn aware of his own shitty behavior).
You missed the point the first time around. Jake feared that there would have been no “AND THEN proceed to ignore Dirk not matter what” because Dirk would very likely manipulate him into staying. Have you ever talked to someone who you felt like could make you do anything they wanted because they were just THAT DAMN GOOD at talking circles around you? Have you ever known the fear of even THINKING about asking them to do or not do something they are not likely to agree with? It’s so scary and suffocating that you become ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THERE IS NO WAY THEY WOULD AGREE and you dare not mention it because their behavior might get WORSE if you do.
And Dirk, with how on edge he’s been and how, from Jake’s conversation with Jane, he has grown progressively more and more suffocating, can you honestly say he would react WELL to Jake’s request? Dirk tends to jump to the worst possible conclusion…on a GOOD day. You vastly overestimated Jake’s self confidence if you think he’d be able to withstand the onslaught of pure controlling manipulative i-can-still-save-this panic Dirk would be if Jake asked him for some space.
Do you think Dirk only JUST realized what a dick he is? There were hints of it even before we entered the Medium. I’m pretty sure it’s been an ever slowly building processes running parallel to AR’s growing sentience. But just because he knows it doesn’t mean he still isn’t a dick. I mean, right up to the pesterlog before he’s i-hate-myself convo with AR, he was still trying to manipulate and guilt trip Jake into coming back KNOWING FULL WELL WHY JAKE LEFT IN THE FIRST PLACE. That does not speak well of Jake’s chance of Dirk respecting his decision.
Because of how Dirk and Jake are, running was Jake’s BEST option. Was it still a sucky option? Yes, but life rarely every offers you nice and neat options to choose from. Sometimes there is no “right” option because you’re fucked either way.
You keep going on about Jake doing the “right” thing….but what does that mean? Does it mean that Jake should have confronted Dirk about his behavior, despite the very high chance that Dirk would have talked him out of it because he “owes” that to Dirk? Despite Dirk being the one to put him in this situation, Jake is the one who “owes” it to Dirk to put himself at risk, so Dirk can have a chance fix what he originally fucked up. That is your definition of “right”, am I correct?
Cause my definition of “right” is, the person who fucked it up carries the burden of fixing it. The responsibility of this is on Dirk. Jake may or may not help it along, but he is under no obligation to. To say that Jake should of done this or could have done that and assign him blame for the situation when he was not the one who caused is called victim-blaming.
No, I don’t usually assign victim and victimizer labels too all couple-fights….unless there is a clear power unbalance. Dirk may not have physically stopped Jake from asking for some space, but he might as well have.
Dirk broke it, so he fixes it. He even knew he was breaking it while he broke it. Jake took the most sensible course of action to get away from a toxic environment available to him considering the circumstances. ((That means the power dynamic between the two is very important to take into consideration before “assigning blame”.))